Overcoming the Past Through Habit Transformation with Frank Paul Vignola
Have you ever felt like your habits and routines were holding you back from achieving your goals? To kick off a new year with Consequence of Habit, JT sat down with Frank Paul Vignola at the headquarters of Few Will Hunt to talk about how to identify and change unhelpful patterns by developing new habits and seeking external support and accountability.
With over a decade of experience coaching men and crafting masculinity, Frank shares his wisdom on the interconnected nature of habits, illustrating how they function like gears on an axis, influencing each other. He encourages stacking positive habits to create momentum and structure, while acknowledging the equally potent impact of unaddressed negative habits.
JT and Frank open up about their challenging pasts and the transformative journey that led them to turn their lives around. Don't miss this episode packed with insights, inspiration, and the keys to unlocking a purposeful life.
Follow Frank on Instagram @vignolagram.
-
JT 0:01
All right, cool. All right. First of all, I told you this, Frank, this is this is a little out of my comfort zone. Before we get this episode started, I want to give a huge shout out to Few Will Hunt. If you've seen the background, we are currently in their headquarters. I reached out to them today, I got somebody coming from New York City. I want to record at a halfway point. And they were very gracious in saying like us had us our headquarters. So here we are. Huge thanks to Joey and Drew and the whole team there for making this happen. So with that said, today, I'm joined by Frank Paul, I don't want to mess it up. We're gonna cut that bar
Frank Paul Vignola 0:40
Practice a couple of times. Yeah. It's Vignola. Yeah.
JT 0:43
So we're here with Frank Paul Vignola. Frank made a drive down from York City or New Jersey, just outside Jersey City, Jersey, sir. Yeah. Alright. So I don't get to do very many of these things in person. And but I could tell from the conversation we had, that this was one that should be done in person. And you agree, you sure this is. So here we are. It's Saturday, rainy day out here in the morning. And we're here to talk about habits. We're 10 years into coaching. We're talking about masculinity. So before we get started, first off, thanks for coming, man. Absolutely,
Frank Paul Vignola 1:19
man, thank you for meeting me here. And I don't know if you're going to record this part or not. I probably should have thanked them earlier. But big shout out to Few Will Hunt. And thank you so much for letting us use this space and for the cool merch. But yeah, thank you, brother. Yeah, I'm super excited. I'm stoked. Yeah. stoked for a few weeks now.
JT 1:37
Yeah. So this is a bit in the making. This is I think you actually reached out and, um, I'll get into that you actually reached out to me? I don't know, it's got to be like three or four months ago. Yeah, that sounds about right, and you send a message. And I'm not gonna surprise anybody to see that. There's, there's a lot of people that reach out to it to you know, as far as the internet goes, and, and I was, I'm always going to a little bit skeptical. And and I saw your profile. So yeah, man, he's got a lot of people following him. But that in itself isn't isn't a way that you know, that's not part of my vetting process. So it was actually going through some of the content you've been putting out, and more. So the conversation we had on the phone, I was away on a work trip. And I we probably spent 45 minutes talking. And I said, alright, well, shit, this is one I can tell. There's a lot of synergy in our messaging, a lot of positive things are going to come from this. So one of the main reasons I actually wanted to do this one is I have this kind of fascination or respect for people that have lived on both sides of the habit spectrum. So before we even get into what you're doing now, I think it really, it matters talking about where you came from. And then kind of that transformation, because that's really a lot about what what consequence a habit is about is this idea of looking at the things we do and and making positive changes in our life. So I'm a bit long winded, but But with that, Frank, go ahead, and maybe just give us a little synopsis of where you came from. Yeah, absolutely,
Frank Paul Vignola 3:08
man. So you know, from our phone call, and the guys watching or listening don't know this yet. But you and I both know that from our call, we established that there's some parallels. Yeah, in our in our background, and how we got to where we are now. So I'll get into my position on habits in a little bit. But just to start with my story, in connection to habits, I had a lot of bad habits, I had a lot of bad habits. And I think bad habits and good habits are similar in a lot of ways in that habits to me are I can get into it now. So habits are like our gears in a machine, you know, and there's the teeth on the axis. And they connect and they aid in each other's rotation. So good habits or bad habits, they will connect and they'll aid in each other's existence and rotation, you can stack them. So if you have a really good habit or a really good ritual in the morning, it's really easy to stack something positive on top of that, it's almost like a magnetic attraction. And then through that, what happens is you start to develop a system or a structure which creates motion. Bad habits can work the same way. Exactly. It's a double edged sword. It's they can work exactly the same way. And it affects our mindset. It's a lot of people and a lot of stuff in in, I guess, pop psychology and modern psychology. And what we're hearing on social media suggests that for years, decades, even it's suggested that we needed an internal shift a mindset shift in order to be able to manifest something outward into action. And as an actor, I learned that it also works the other way around. That motion leads to emotion. And sometimes we just need to do Do first and then it kind of works internally as well. So they're kind of mutually reciprocal. So when I was younger, I had a lot of bad habits. You know, I, I was, you know, I don't know how far back you want to go. I mean, when I was a teenager, I was in, you know, group homes and institutions and juvie. And you know, that was that's where it all started. Yeah.
JT 5:21
And I think that's part of the that interests me because you see somebody in those positions, and a lot of times, like you say, well, they're screwed, right? Like they, their future is that they've already set the groundwork, like the needle has worn into the record so much, that it's very hard to make changes after after that. So that I think that's one of the reasons, I was interested in having this conversation. And I guess just even being in the home is one thing. But it's really that shift. It's like when you came to a crossroads, and I heard you mentioned mentors before, but it's very hard for somebody at that age to make that connection and go, Hey, what I'm doing is not working. And I'm willing to accept that and then make changes. So I think that's one of the things I want to dive deep into.
Frank Paul Vignola 6:08
Yeah, it is interesting, what you said about how, once somebody's on that trajectory, it's hard to imagine them coming off of it. That's an unfortunate truth. But it's accurate, you know, a lot of my peers that I was in those programs with, they didn't, they didn't find their way off of that path. You know, we were 16, then, you know, and now now we're in our, you know, I'm 42. And most of them are around the same age, and a lot of them are on that same trajectory. And the longer you stay on it, the harder it is to, it's just it's a it's a wiring. It's a wiring
JT 6:46
breeding system, right? Like, it's
Frank Paul Vignola 6:48
a programming. And as we get older, and the longer we stay in it, the harder it is, it's not impossible, but the harder it is to to neutralize it or to add new programming. And a lot of times, and this is one of the reasons a lot of guys come to me is they say, you know, I've wanted to change for years, I've hit rock bottom, I've wanted to change for years, I don't know what to do, is that they hit a wall, and they just don't know what to do differently. Yeah, yeah. So. And I don't know if I answered your question.
JT 7:18
I probably I don't know you did, you did. And it leads into something I want to talk about. Because you You talked a bit, you'd made a post recently, and it was about, you know, the quick access to dopamine and how easy it is. And but we know when we chase things that make us feel good short term that the long term outlook on that is usually not good, right? Yeah. And when I, you know, I've had some, some people go, Hey, man, you're doing this thing called consequence, a habit. But we all know that good habits lead to good things. And we all know that bad habits lead to bad things. Like you may know that. But the reality is that we are, as far as country goes leading in depression, anxiety, suicide addiction. So even though we know those things, like, you know, you want to have good habits, you know, you want to live with a sense of purpose. But that doesn't mean, just because you know, that that it happens, right? Like there has to be, we talked about an operating system or your gears that there has to be a way to get from where I want to be, to where the rubber meets the road. Where am I today? Or at least what trajectory am I am I heading on? Yeah,
Frank Paul Vignola 8:27
and there's a few things you just said that I want to speak to. And one of them is the starting point. Yeah, and, you know, in my framework, I used to dive into, I used to dive into like, the really deep stuff with my clients, I used to go right into, like, you know, identity clarity. And, and I would get into like their values, their character strengths, helping them find some sense of purpose. And what I found was that, while that's a super important thing to do, in order to have somebody live a more purposeful life, develop their self worth some more and have some sense of direction and mission. It's not the first step. I realized after years of doing this, the first step is actually an interception. You have to intercept their current trajectory, you have to it's what you're talking about is that there's other things that they're doing externally. So before you get into like the deep dive of like, let's do the internal work. And hopefully it manifests outward into external actions. It's actually none of them to know they're in a cycle right now. They're very likely in a cycle of bad habits. And we need to interrupt that first and first and intercepted first.
JT 9:34
So it's almost like an audit of what you're doing right now is that is absolutely
Frank Paul Vignola 9:38
100% It's, it's looking at the habits that are happening right now. You know, it's it's tricky, because, you know, I ultimately, we need to know our values in order to be able to understand whether or not we're living in alignment, and most of us don't know our values that well, most of us if you were to ask somebody like hey, do you know your values, they'll be like, yeah, for course and then ask them Okay, cool, what are they, and see if they can rattle them off, most of us don't know that. I mean, I was one of them, you know, so So part of my framework was, well, let me provide an assessment so that guys can know their let me put my own spin on it and style to have guys be able to determine what their what their lifestyle values are not so much ethical values, but lifestyle values that they want to live by, you know, I'm not talking necessarily about a moral compass, and universal morals, I'm talking about personal values that we want to live by. And there's a process to identify those things. And then through that process, we can start making better decisions and have more clarity on who we spend our time with what we do, you know, what we engage in, and what job we accept or don't accept, and just making choices, you know, assessing our relationships and whatnot. And, but the irony in all of this is that what I'm saying is that, while that's a process that could take a month or longer, we need to do that from the very beginning. So we have to go in a little bit blindly in the beginning, without knowing all of those things and having those answers and say, Well, what's going on in your life? And what do we know works versus what doesn't work? So we know that if you're consuming a lot of alcohol regularly, that that's probably not good. You know, that's probably going to be out of alignment with who you want to be, you know, are you staying up late every night? And there's no structure to your sleep schedule? Are you eating, you know, at all different times and putting, you know, just you know, really bad things into your body? You know, are you? Are you feeding yourself dopamine? That's just quick fixes, you know, are you constantly scrolling through social media? Are you jerking off all the time to porn, you know, gambling, you know, ordering takeout, whatever it is all of those things that are like the quick fix dopamine hits. So yes, that's what the interception is, you start off in the beginning, with removing those things, and saying, All right, let's start to remove some of these quick fix dopamine hits, let's start to break some of these habits. And let's start to bring in some new ones, you know, let's have you wake up first thing in the morning and take a cold shower, do a set of push ups or, you know, do something that's going to create a dopamine hit, that's more of like a slow build. Sure. And that lasts a lot longer. And what I found is that even before they understand their values, even if they go into that blindly, not knowing why they're doing it, but they just trust the process, that even just doing those things, there starts to become a shift there starts to be there, you start to see an internal shift. The extra the motion leads to emotion.
JT 12:35
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Cuz that's why even you know, for me, that was one of them. The eye opening things as you think that everything happens in like a vacuum, right? Like if you do this, like if you, you drink or whatever that thing is. And you can personalize it like, hey, that isn't affecting me after the fact. Right, right. And then you start to realize that no, no, no, I'm an unhappy person. This thing that I was chasing, that made me feel good, is the same thing that's making me it takes my own self worth away, or it makes me feel depressed, or my interactions with other people aren't what they should be. But how long did it take you to make that? Yeah. And that made me that's why I'm fascinated by even your time coming from from juvie, as it were, I quit drinking almost five years ago. And it mean, it's still it's like, it's still working progress, right. Like one of the things I wanted to do on on, even with this whole project, is it. We document these things in real time, like it's still a process, right? So at what point did you start to make those connections and feel confident in yourself enough to to be able to start, like, you know, putting this out to the world?
Frank Paul Vignola 13:52
It was, it was a process for me to, you know, and it's been a learning process through my teens through my 20s Even through my 30s. But one of the things that I would say, and this is I was so fortunate to be able to have this experience, but one of the I was incarcerated for about four years total and group homes and shelters and mental health centers, rehabs boys homes, juvie, etc. The last two years of those four years, I was in a boy's home. And that was where I met two really great mentors who had a huge impact on my life. And one of them a woman, she was my therapist. She she met me with a lot of compassion. She wasn't intimidated by me. She She listened to me she made me feel seen she made me feel heard all of that was really great. But it wasn't enough. It wasn't enough to elicit or to inspire motivate a real change in me. Yeah, I still wasn't doing what I needed to be doing. I was trusting her I was opening up to her but I was still really misbehaving big time. So then she threatened me She She straight up fucking said, you know you're we found another place it's it's out of state it's on the other side of the US yeah and it's a three year program Baba Baba bah this and that it was all bullshit I found out later oh really made it up it was an attack brilliant really it was a scare tactic and it was very effective. So I'm saying all that to say she held my feet to the fire. There was something at stake. Yeah, my freedom. Yeah, there was something at stake, one of the reasons why we don't change is because there's not enough at stake. There's not something directly in front of us, like an immediate consequence. Right. That's why I love one of the reasons I love the name of your podcast is consequences of habit. Consequences motivate us sure they really do. And consequences can be positive or negative, you know, but, but in immediate reward, which is, again, one of the reasons why we have these quick dopamine hits provided for us is because we're constantly being given these quick fixes and stuff like that, which makes us less and less likely to trust a process. But I was given my feet were held to the fire, and I was given a situation that was sink or swim. So I had to turn around, I had to make a choice. You know, I could have kept fucking off for a couple more years, probably and enjoyed it. But once my feet were held to the fire, and I realized, I want my freedom, I've already been away almost four years, I don't want to go out of state not be able to get visitation and on home visits, and be away for another two or three years. Hell now it scared the life out of me. Yeah, there was something at stake now. So that's when that's she it was a test. It was a test to see. What's Frank going to do if we hold his feet to the fire? Is he really that? Ill that he can't change? Well, let's see this will determine that. And sure enough, what they found was that no, he just needed to have his feet held to the fire. So yeah,
JT 16:55
I think there is something to like you said that she was. She's compassionate in some ways you open up to her. But there's also time to call out bullshit, right? Absolutely. I think that's especially I don't even know if this is I mean, there probably goes for everyone. I don't I don't want to categorize as a male thing, but maybe a young male thing. And there has to be a point where somebody's like, we can get into your feelings, but it's at some point. She's got to like you got to stowed
Frank Paul Vignola 17:22
away. And it is I mean, it can be a male thing. I think that's fair to say. I mean, listen, I'm a coach for men, right? But I've worked with women. I've worked with women before, I've worked with plenty of them. I love working with women. And I especially love working with young women, like in the I have one that I feel very close to which we just had lunch the other day. She's in her early 20s I'm tough on her. Yeah, but I'm not as tough as I am when the guys Yeah. It's almost I become more paternal with her. So it's a little bit different. But the guys Yeah, I mean, I'm a bit of a motherfucker, you know, and people when they hire me, they know that they know that they're hiring me because they're gonna get structure and accountability, they're gonna get honesty, they're gonna get objective, constructive criticism. And, and I'm gonna point out their blind spots. And a lot of helping professionals out there want to do that. A lot of coaches, they have a great framework, but they don't have the courage to assert themselves to make those difficult choices and have those difficult conversations where you risk your client no longer liking you, and being your friend, your client, you know, even possibly saying, I don't know if I want to continue this. That's a risk I'm willing to take. Because that's what was done for me. She was no longer my friend. Right? Yeah. And she was okay with that as Yeah, right. Yeah.
JT 18:36
There's something to be said about that. Right. And us. I mean, maybe I mean, I could be wrong. But, you know, we, depending on what background you come from, when you want to say it's just an academic, right? I learned this about these types of people. But there's something when when you come from a different place, that you can spot your own, like, you can probably see the younger version of you that needed to be called out total. So I think there's, there's something to be said about that. It's like, it's like the police officer that came to a crossroads in his life and could have gone either way, the great police officers because they can smell their own right, like, right. Oh, so what was that process like for you to say, Okay, I've made these changes. I'm willing to put this out to the world, because there is something to be said about that. I mean, I feel here like you run a podcast or consequence a habit, there's an expectation with this person there have their shit together. That's right. And full transparency. I don't Oh, so what was what was that process like for you? And then the second part of that question is how do you deal when maybe you're in a spot that isn't in line with what you're putting out to the world? Or, or does that ever happen? Yeah, sure.
Frank Paul Vignola 19:51
So yeah, full transparency. I don't have all my shit together. Right. Yeah, we're human. And I think as leaders, we do want until the best leaders are exemplars is that we exemplify what we're what we're teaching. And what we're talking about, but not perfectly, and anybody who presents themselves in a way that that feels perfect. They're not a great leader in my eyes. There's some people out there who are in the coaching space and in the masculinist space that I consider sort of peers that I followed, not going to mention any names, but some of them come across, I feel is actually very grandiose, and unrelatable. And, and I think that's really hard to connect with. I think as leaders, we have to show that we do make mistakes, and we fuck up. But to answer your question, why did I went did I transition into or pivot into wanting to be a coach or a leader? It was them. It was when she had held my feet to the fire, that I started doing the things that I knew that I needed to do, even though they weren't backed by the emotion, even though they weren't backed by a feeling of motivation, I had to do it anyway. So he was going through the motions, and it was developing good habits. And there was a certain standard in that program of you have to live by this, you have to live this way live that way, there was a structure that was provided, I just had to adhere to that structure. And by adherence, organically, it started to shift something in me internally. And what I learned through that process, is that I inspired other people is that I was naturally a leader. I learned strengths that I didn't know that I had by just going through the motions. And all of a sudden there I was 17 years old, and I was leading, you know, groups, that'd
JT 21:37
be a strange thing. Because you from what it sounds like, you go from being a kid who's told, Hey, you fucking up, you got to get your stuff together. You got to get your stuff together. And then this transition happens where now people are looking to you for the exact opposite things. What you were doing before right now you're leading from the front, and hey, this is the way we do things. Yeah. Was that hard to take? Was it hard to take? The pressure? I guess, even having the confidence within yourself to say, Yeah, I deserve to be in that position. Because you've probably been told for a good period of your life that you know, you're you can't even be free right now. Right.
Frank Paul Vignola 22:19
Right. Yeah. Yeah, that that shift?
JT 22:23
Or did it seem just like a natural fit?
Frank Paul Vignola 22:26
Both Seeing is believing? Yeah. So going through the motions. Again, it was sink or swim, the structure was provided for me this, the my life. And what happened in that in that pivot. And in that transition, is not all that different than what I tried to manufacture and create for my clients that are trying to make a transformation in their life. It's just that that structure was provided for me. And if I didn't do it, I was going to be sent away. Not really, but I believed I was going to be sent away. So for them, we have to create high stakes. And that's usually an investment of a lot of money. You know, I'm not that paid by the hour $150 and a session coach, because that you can justify being like whatever I you know, yeah, right, whatever. But you can spend 10s of 1000s of dollars you're going to commit, so there's high stakes, and then the structure is creating the habits, the good habits and the rituals and say do it anyway, you just need to do it, you don't need to believe it, you don't have to agree with it, you just need to experience it. You don't need to conceptualize it, you just need to fucking do it for 21 days, and then you'll start seeing the shift. So when I started doing what I needed to do in order to not get kicked out of that fucking program, what happened was there was an inner shift. And I got to see firsthand how people were responding to me. i How do I deny what's right in front of me? They could tell me over and over again, Frank, you're a natural leader? Frank, you're this Frank, you're that. And that reinforcement was helpful. But it was when I started seeing it myself. Yeah, that I started believing it. So was it challenging? Initially? Of course, it was absolutely. But that's the part of the process that we have to trust, and we have to go in blindly. And sometimes we just have to do you know, it's like, I mean, I'm sure you can relate to that when it comes to quitting a substance. It's in the beginning, you know, that it's probably different for each person. But um, I would imagine that even if there is an internal shift, even if we hit rock bottom, and we decide, I know, I need to do this for myself, and I feel completely motivated to do it. There are definitely going to be times where we're doing it just because we know we have to
JT 24:28
Yeah, they called the pink cloud, right? Like when you first start something you're on this this euphoric things like, Oh, my God, my life has changed. Everything's great, right? But when something is a coping mechanism, whatever that thing is, like it doesn't doesn't go away like and when you talk about actions and emotions and emotions leads to actions. That's like when life gets hard, we fall back to the same coping mechanisms that have worked are not really they weren't short term for our entire lives. And I think those that's one of the bigger goal is a consequence of him is to one point those things out and least make you aware of it. Or even aware of the negative feelings after the fact. Yeah, okay. Um, I don't feel great. So let me backtrack a little bit. So, so yeah, I completely, I completely agree with with all that. And, and um, you know, I really should have mentioned that your main job is as a men's coach, yes, you you teach and this listen right or wrong when you first this goes back to when you first reached out and I saw masculinity. I'm all for that. But yeah, but but there's this. The phrase itself is is, as you know, has has been misconstrued or totally, I know what you're saying. Yeah. So yeah, so what it
Frank Paul Vignola 25:50
means, right, because it can be a problematic term because it's so subjective and, and it's also politically connected these days as well. So there's Yeah,
JT 25:57
right. And in full transparency, like, for me, the mission of consequence of habit isn't is it's bigger, right? It's for everybody. Absolutely. But it wasn't until we I started digging into what you're talking about. That was like, no, no, this this meet this is for so it's good for everybody. Right? There's, I'm sure there's a lot of women that because it's not just this, Hey, I'm gonna go rock 1000 miles and do a bunch of squats, there's, you got to be a little more cerebral, right? Like it's really looking at, at you as an entire person. Yes. And is and having as much balance in that and not letting one thing control. I have no doubt I'm talking about for I'm just, I'm just going off right now. But I know, I know what I'm thinking in my head, but but communicating it and so maybe maybe you can give the listeners when the word masculinity is, you know, is rattling around in your brain? What does it conjure? Like, what is it kind of definition for you?
Frank Paul Vignola 26:57
Well, now when I think of the term masculinity, it excites me because it's something that that I love, and something that I feel good about, and something that I connect with. And it's interesting, and I do want to circle back a little bit, I'm gonna I think I can connect this to I want to circle back a little bit to the leadership and believing that we can be leaders in that pressure and whether or not we can actually get behind that and believe that we have that power, that impact. And it's very much tied to what you just asked me about masculinity. Because if you would have asked that kid that was in those programs, do you think you're going to be teaching guys about masculinity, I would have fucking laughed, I would have fell over? Well, because I, I didn't have a lot of self worth. And I actually felt like that was a big deficiency in who I was, yeah, it was masculinity. You know, I grew up. I grew up without any brothers. I grew up without any grandfather's. I have a couple male cousins that I got closer with as an adult. But as a kid, I didn't really have any close male cousins. And I had a very rocky relationship with my father, my father was a police officer, Vietnam that, you know, real guys guy on the surface. And, and that was something that I had a hard time connecting with. And as a little boy, he also got custody of me. So it was just he and I. And I know that that was a struggle for him. And I believe, listen, he did his best, but his way of handling a boy that wasn't doing the things that he wanted to do or didn't have the same interests that he had when he was a boy and wasn't the reflection of him that he wanted. Because, you know, and due to you know, he had his own insecurities. He was only in his 30s. So he's human, he had his own insecurities. And he wanted his boy to, you know, I guess grow up to be a football player, whatever he imagined that to be, you know, I had sisters and, you know, I was I was probably a little boy leaning more into my feminine energy because I was inspired by women, I had female therapists, I had sisters, I was close to my mother, I had aunts, I had a female cousin, I was close to my grandmother, there was all this female energy. And his way of dealing with it was to shame me or express disappointment. And, and he thought that he would shame me into, you know, into, into the right path and what it did instead and now we're surprised I know, right? How unusual but, but what it did instead was it it made me have a total deficiency or, or, or hate a part of myself. And that was what I wouldn't have been able to determine then. But can determine now was my masculinity was being a male. You know, as that I always felt that I wasn't good enough that I was inadequate. So that was my biggest not that you asked me this yet. But that was my biggest inspiration for writing the book. Because it also is very connected to the time when I pivoted into being more of a leader and recognized thing that part of myself is the same time that I was recognizing that I was an inspiration to other people, and that I was a mentor to them. And that they looked up to me was the same time that I was learning that guys actually did aspire to be more like me. And that they, they did see me as a masculine energy that they wanted to be more like that I had qualities and attributes that they associated with being male, that they also wanted for themselves. And that is exciting. And it feels amazing. And it's, it's awesome. But also, just because you challenged me with this question, if I put myself back into that younger, younger guy. It is kind of like, get that fuck out of here. Like No way. No, not me. You know, there's still he's still in there that that guy didn't believe in himself.
JT 30:56
So impostor syndrome. I mean, that's with everybody, right? Sure, sure. But
Frank Paul Vignola 31:00
the thing is that, and I don't know if you've experienced this yet, maybe you have I hope so. And if you haven't, I hope you do. But I've got to experience and sometimes it takes somebody else like another mentor peer to pointed out to me, but I got to experience how people respond to me. And, and like, whether it's a client or a younger guy, or something, and then somebody in my life would remind me, Frank, remember when you were young, and you looked at somebody this way, and I have clear visuals, sure of the people in my life when I was younger, who I looked up to and admired. And and I think I'm there, fill in the blank with the name. You know what, let's just say like, I'll throw out some fake names. But let's say that there was a mike and a John, you know, that when I was growing up, when I was young, I looked up to whether he, he was the lifeguard at the pool in the complex, or whether he was one of the staff members at the place that I was living at, you know, the mic and the John that I was like, oh, deep down, I so admired them and I wanted to be liked them and thought, Man, I could never be like this. This is awesome. And then to think, oh, no, I'm there, Mike. Yeah, I'm there, Mike. I'm there, John.
JT 32:16
And even more, it's the positive, right? Because you can be younger and have somebody you look up to for the wrong reasons, right. Sure. And so it's to me, it's even twofold, that they're looking up to you for all of the right reasons. And it. So I mean, I've had excuse me is this is where where I've gotten an email from somebody like what you said, or the guests that you had on has had a profound impact on my life. And it usually happens at a really good time and time where I'm like, questioning things like, my Am I on the right path? Are we doing the right things? Yeah. But it's a different role. And it for me, the transition has been strange, where you have one life where you've done this, and maybe you're successful in it. But this is a whole separate time. And the people that don't know the transformation, right? They don't, they haven't maybe seen it, or you haven't let them be privy to it. There's that that thing where you're like, No, no, I'm doing this now. And they gotta be like, it's fuck out here, dude. What are you talking about? I know you, right? Like, you don't, you might thought you did. Yeah. But this is I'm on this path. And it may not be perfect, but we're heading in this direction. So it's these two worlds. And I've talked to other people, as you know, the same thing. They have their day job, doing whatever. But on this side, they're doing this whole thing. And it's kind of weird. thing of two different
Frank Paul Vignola 33:43
commercials. Yeah, absolutely. And we're, you know, we're layered, but you know, the phrase, you know, people places things, right. Yeah. So, you know, there's there's that in that in the 12 step. perspective. And then there's also just what we've heard in the personal development space, which is that we're the summation of the top five people that we surround yourself with the most. So yes, as we grow, and as we change, we're going to let a lot of people go, or we're going to detach ourselves from them and create some space because they're no longer in alignment with the person that we're becoming. And that is one of the sad parts. But one of the realities of, of growth and of kind of pivoting into a leadership role is that when you grow at that kind of pace, when you when you strive for self mastery. That's a lonely journey. Sure, leadership can be quite lonely. Sure, you know, but it's also unbelievably fulfilling, it's rewarding. And if we have for the guys out there who become leaders because they have story like ours, which are these kinds of formative, you know, full circle stories of coming from where we came from, and then coming to coming into a role where we help other people in that position or positions that are paralleled to those positions. It's, it gives so much purpose to our life, that it's okay If it's a little bit lonely, and yeah, to your point what you said, when people question that around you, those are the people that I look at now. And I think, okay, I either have to let you go, or I have to moderate my closeness to you, because you're not encouraging me, you know, to be on this path and you don't get it. And if anything, you might even be offended by it, because we're so out of alignment now. Yeah. You know, when they say to me, Frank, I liked you better when you were crazy. And when you were using I say, I liked you better when I was crazy. And I was using to you. Right,
JT 35:27
exactly. You're exactly right. Yeah. I think he there's even synergy the fact that we're having this conversation with in the Few Will Hunt headquarters, because there's a lot of, you know, what they're putting out is building this community around those exact those exact things. And you do become what you surround yourself with, I don't care. And I've said this to my kids, how smart how well intentioned you are that you it's the human experience, we, we morph, we become what we surround ourselves with. And, you know, I think that's one of the biggest problems are the problems, but what are the biggest obstacles when people are going to make a change? They're like, well, what am I going to? Everyone I know around me does this. And that's not a fucking accident. Right? Like, right? Because we want to be live in a way that we don't feel judged, right? Like, if you're, you know, breaking into cars every day, I got news for you probably hanging out with dudes who break into cars or do drugs or do whatever it is, right?
Frank Paul Vignola 36:22
Or people who are worse off than you are saw, right?
JT 36:25
Because you feel better about yourself. Right? Right. So there is something to be said about the that your loneliness or seeking out people that will hold you accountable, even if it's through their own actions, right, that just by them living their life. It can be lonely, but
Frank Paul Vignola 36:43
it could also just be that we have smaller circles. Yeah, you know, smaller, more intimate circles. But yeah, in
JT 36:50
your coaching business, is there? I think, you know, the answer is, but is there a stereotypical client? Is there, you know, do they fit into a certain mold? Or are you finding that there is just a really broad spectrum of people that are seeking purpose and to make positive changes in their life?
Frank Paul Vignola 37:06
I mean, there's, it's yes, and no, I mean, so for the no part of it would be that there are people from different cultures, people of different ages, people from different backgrounds, and who have different interests who do different things for work, introvert, extrovert, all different personality types. The Yes, part of that answer is to your question is, is in that what they want from me is very similar, they usually come to me because they need structure in their life in the form of consistent good habits, some accountability and some momentum in their life, they need that inertia back in their life, they don't have structure, they don't have systems in place. So their life feels chaotic, and it feels stagnant. Yeah, the other thing that's really another parallel would be that a lot of guys come to me because they feel like their life lacks purpose. They're going through the motions, but they don't feel purposeful in what they're doing. They don't feel like they're driven by a mission. And these guys likely do not know their values, and they're not crystal clear on their character strengths. And they're not doing things that are intentional, and intentionally aligned with those with those things. And then finally, because of how I'm branding myself, a lot of guys are coming to me wanting to talk more about masculinity, because they might feel some deficiency in their masculinity, as well. And, and, you know, I'm hoping that my, my brand, and the what I put out there in my book speaks to guys who, who feel that way? Yeah. Because that's, that's how I felt. And it's the real reason that I wrote the book. We're moving into a time now where a lot of people are, are talking more and more about how masculinity is needed now more than ever, yeah. And, and how we need to bring it back into society, and how there's a responsibility to step into our masculine energy and whatnot. And I am in agreement with that. But I just want to be clear that the way I wrote the book was very selfishly, it was so that people can feel better about themselves. And if there's any guy out there that has ever looked at another man, and felt deeply inadequate, that my book could provide some solutions so that he could learn to love himself. And I actually think that that is the first part of the process in bringing masculine masculinity and leadership and and responsibility to society more is to do the internal work first. Sure. But yeah, so anyway, to circle back to your question. Those are probably the parallels that you would find in guys that come to me is that it's not all introverts. It's not all guys who work in it. It's not all 25 year olds who still live at home with mom, there's some of those, but I also get retirees who are 65 years old, I get guys who are unemployed and not doing anything. And then I get CEOs of, you know, billionaire companies. So, yeah, yeah, I
JT 40:17
think that's interesting. And I've, I've seen where people are struggling and success does not determine whether somebody's struggling or not, right. But that's it's harder to see from the outside. And I think one of the eve of my own experiences, you can have everything, what appears to be together, right, but but that's, that does not mean at two in the morning, when you're having those conversations with yourself. They don't always align. And matter of fact, I think some people that are good at communicating or good at acting or putting those things out there will will put a bet facade longer until they can't write until something has to make a change. And, and I want to make sure we're following the book. This is crafting masculinity. And you can get this where Amazon
Frank Paul Vignola 41:04
get it on Amazon. Oh, yeah, there's the paperback version, there's a Kindle version. And soon in the next few months, there's going to be an audiobook. Okay. Yeah.
JT 41:13
Getting into habits a Frank, what are some of the things that you do that, you know, either add value to life, make you feel a certain way about yourself? What's your kind of daily routine look like?
Frank Paul Vignola 41:22
So I have a really strong morning ritual. And I have a really strong night ritual. And actually, for guys out there who, who are not working with a coach who aren't really at a point yet where they want to hire a coach or just simply want to do something on their own, this is something that you can all do, to add a little bit of structure into your life, if you're not sure how to navigate this and, and create structure, this is a really good starting point. So I tell guys, and this is what I do as well. Start at the at the front of your day, and at the end of the day and work inward. And even if you have the front of your day in terms of the first hour, hour and a half that you're awake, and the end of your day, the last hour hour and a half that you're awake. And the way you do that is reverse engineer from the time you want to go to bed and work backwards. The time you want to work wake up and then you work forward is that it's interesting how little by little organically you can build upon that and structure will be added to your day. It's like I said with the gears and the teeth on the axis of each gear, they connect and they start assisting each other's rotation, you could stack good habits on top of one another. So for me, my morning ritual, I wake up and I avoid the phone, I try to do a 54321 out of bed thing. full transparency. Sometimes I'm in bed for 10 minutes before I get up. But you know, I get out of bed and I do not scroll, I stay away from the phone because I want to make sure that my first dopamine hit of the day is something that's really good, because I believe and I think that science has proven this. I think I've read it or heard Andrew Huberman say this, that if our first dopamine hit of the day is how we train our brain to seek dopamine for the rest of the day. And then when we sleep, it resets. So if you wake up and you scroll through your phone and you get a quick fix, that's how you're going to seek dopamine for the rest of the day, subconsciously, you're going to want your phone you're going to want to jerk off you're going to want the chocolate, you know, alcohol, etc. So I wake up and I tried to, to block out all of that stuff. And I'll either do set of push ups make my bed or cold shower or all of the above? You know, the push ups it's something difficult the making the bed it's a feeling of accomplishment, the cold shower, there's so much good that comes from fucking cold exposure. Yeah. Yeah. So so I'll do that. I also, I also really strongly believe in feeding ourselves, inspiration and inspirational material, we have to feed ourselves, artists need to feed themselves inspiration in order to continue to create people who are obsessed with personal development need to feed themselves inspiration, in order to continue to develop themselves, we need that. So we have to have our own mentors, even if we don't necessarily know them personally. So you know, you can listen to the Michael share. Now you can listen to you know, consequences of habit, you can listen to the Bedros you know, you have to have your podcast, have a good audio book, and make it part of your ritual. You know, I'm listening to my audiobook for 30 minutes every morning while I'm making my breakfast, you know, it's putting good things into my head, we need that immersion. So that's how I start my day. And then once I've done that, that's when I can look at my phone. That's when I'm allowed to check my emails. That's when I can go on social media and scroll if I want to, because I already got a bunch of really good dopamine hits, and I'm feeling high and I'm feeling energized in a good way and it's a lasting high. So that's how I start my day and ending my day. It's kind of like winding down.
JT 44:45
I need any more than any more winding down. Yeah, I like winding up and then we're just gonna write it as long as I possibly can. Yeah, but then it's hard to sleep. Oh, you're telling me Yeah, like there's lots of times I get very little sleep. So yeah, I literally just had a conversation with my wife. A couple days ago. I was like I need the cut off after this time, no more, because otherwise, I'm laying there. So what time do you want to go to bed? I'm six o'clock. So I tried to go. I'm usually in data room between nine 930. Okay. I think I'm naturally a morning person. So I'm up by
Frank Paul Vignola 45:22
five o'clock, you're up by five. Okay, so are you an eight hours asleep kind of guy? I mean, yeah, what I mean is what's what works good for you? To answer your this is answering the question. And the guys listening can also apply this to themselves. So this is this would be my formula. Okay, what I would do with a client, so, so you're eight hours, seven hours, eight and a half?
JT 45:41
What do you seven and eight. And I feel fantastic.
Frank Paul Vignola 45:44
Okay, all right. And 5am It's not challenging for you to get up at that time that works for you.
JT 45:47
No, I really cherish the time before everyone else gets up. And that's where I'm going to do with the sun. It's, that's what I'm probably going to, I'm probably gonna work out or at least I'm going to work on my my to do list my checklists, maybe journal, read my daily stoic, whatever that thing is cool. That starts me off the right way.
Frank Paul Vignola 46:05
Okay, so you want to be in bed sometime between nine and 10, that's gonna get you your seven to eight hours. You know, some people work really nicely with a flexible window like that. And some people do not. Some people are like, just give me a time I need structure. So if you're one of the people who needs a time and wants, you know, structure, let's just say right in the middle, let's call it 930. So 930 bedtime, what that means. And what I tell my guys is, that doesn't mean that you start brushing your teeth at 930. And that doesn't mean you turn your TV off at 930. That means you are in the bed with the lights out at 930. Now, so that means that you have to start prepping at nine o'clock. Yeah. So all electronics are off by nine o'clock and you're doing your your evening routine, whatever that's going to be brushing your teeth, you know, things like that, you know, setting your alarm on your phone planning your next day. So that means nine o'clock, everything is off. That means your brain to you're not working anymore.
JT 46:58
Yeah, I think that I think that's that's the hard part. And that's where I think even my mental shutdown needs, it needs to be like, two hours before I actually in Well,
Frank Paul Vignola 47:10
that's the next step. So if nine o'clock is when all things go off, and you start your preparation to get into bed by 930, with the lights out, that means that at eight o'clock, you want to start especially for you, if you say that you need to really wind down and shut the brain off, you need to start a wind down routine. And that's when I actually believe that it's okay to feed ourselves something that is mindless and entertaining, right? I really do. And I think that mindless television or a book and the book does not need to be, you know, some inspirational fiction it can be yes, yeah, it can be a novel. But it's it's your wine downtime. So for me, my last hour before that half hour gap between when I want to be in bed, and when my where I start preparing to be in bed. I'm watching like something on Netflix, I'm watching or something on prime? You know, right now I'm watching the boys on prime. So you know, yes. Can I get connected to the story? Sure. Is there some emotional resonance? And do I get involved? Sure, but my brain is not working. Yeah, my brain is not working. And I'm not looking at my phone, and responding to things and emails while I'm watching the phone is down. And I am winding down and I am losing myself in a TV show for the last hour of my day. And then I have 30 minutes before I want to get into bed. And then by that time, I'm tired, my mind is shutting down. And if you really, really, really need something else to aid you use a sleep meditation. I like Insight Timer, it's a free app, you can go on there, you could look up sleep meditation, I don't know if your wife, your wife is gonna love that. Because she if she's in the bed next to you, you know, she's gonna have to hear it too. But you know, there you can listen to a sleep meditation. And it will just it will take you through the motions of shutting the brain off.
JT 48:56
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I think understanding that when you do these things that you actually more productive, right? Like, because because you can feel like I'm not doing enough. You know, because I've got I've got to do, but but in reality, you can't get into that deep work if you're not sleeping. Right, you need to have a basic need.
Frank Paul Vignola 49:14
Yeah, right. It's a basic need, like the way we need to move our bodies and we need exercise the way we need to hydrate the way we need to feed ourselves, you know, nutritional, you know, neutral nutritional foods. We need sleep. And guys who tell me like I get four hours of sleep, and that makes me you know, an alpha. And I'm ahead of everybody else, because I guess I got four more hours in my day. Okay, good luck sustaining that. Yeah. What do you 23 You know, talk to me when you're 42. Right. You know, good luck sustaining that, you know, there's not too many people out there who can operate on for hours asleep? Not long term, right? You know, no, we need our sleep. We need to know our bodies. Are there people out there who could do six, six and a half probably that's fine. And I'm not one of them.
JT 49:54
Right like they're not.
Frank Paul Vignola 49:55
I'm not I'm not one of them. I'm one that does really well on eight and you know what on a workout day I'd do even better on eight and a half. And I want it to be a seven hour guy. Guess what? My body said? No, I do better with eight hours. And I've accepted that. So that means I get an hour less of daytime. But you know what? My daytime hours that I am awake for are more productive. Because I've listened to my body. I'm well rested. I don't need naps. I don't need an afternoon coffee. I don't have an afternoon crash after lunch. I'm awake. Yeah,
JT 50:23
yeah, yeah, it's, um, you know, it's a form of self love. Like you think you're you're holding yourself back from something but, but understanding that I think that that took me a long time to write like, it's an act of self love to have these things have discipline. Yeah, you know, I went in the military and I, I'm ADHD, or at least, you know, I don't have the hyperactivity but yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I go in the military, and I excel like I do I get all these awards. I'm like, oh, man, I got it. I'm cured. This thing figured out. You only he was curious. There was structure like there was
Frank Paul Vignola 50:56
just the the structure was provided for you. Yeah. So you do amazing when structures there.
JT 51:00
Yeah. And I said, like, I have to accept that like, because I know, because I got out and I'm like, Hey, I got it all figured out. And I went through some of the darkest periods of my life. Yes, I didn't have this structure. And I hadn't made that connection yet of like accepting that, and understanding that my actions, the emotions that come with it, and I was, like, Man, this is this is a train wreck, right? Like, this isn't good. And really, it was a move back East. And I'm kind of going off my actually interviewing myself right now. But it headed where I go.
Frank Paul Vignola 51:32
But I'm so resonating with what you're saying, because I'm remembering a time when I had a lightbulb moment. And I almost wanted to enlist. Yeah, because I missed the structure that was provided for me in that boy's home. And I excelled in it. And I wasn't excelling in life. And I couldn't figure out why. So I get what you're saying I do. It's just that it's up to us to provide the structure for ourselves that if you're an entrepreneur, if you don't have a nine to five, if you don't have any structure provided for you, you have to fucking find the willpower and the discipline to be able to provide it for yourself, even
JT 52:03
if that means having a mentor or somebody that helps you keep yourself or coach.
Frank Paul Vignola 52:08
Amen, brother. Absolutely. That's what they're there for. Yeah, right. Right. So
JT 52:12
and that's, that's part of it, it's okay to say, hey, this isn't my normal operating system. I don't, maybe I don't hold myself accountable enough. Yeah. But part of that process means I need to put those those checks and balances in place.
Frank Paul Vignola 52:25
I'm actually glad you put that out there. Because there's a lot of people who have this misconception or feel like there's this stigma around working with a helping professional, whether it's a therapist, a mentor, or a coach, that it means that your life must be fucked up. That if you're investing this kind of money and working with a coach, obviously, you're sucking at life, and you just you know, Wow, am I that fucked up? Am I that bad off? It doesn't have to be that you're you're fucked up and you're bad off. It could be that you're somebody who thrives in structure. And you want to get to the next level that you want to be a high performing person, you want to be the alpha version of yourself, you know, you want to be you want to go from beta to the next level, you want to go from amateur to pros, you know, and what do we do we hire, we hire a coach to provide that structure that's going to push us in a way that we will push ourselves. Yeah, it's
JT 53:11
not a weakness. Right now, though, to me, the weakness is continuing to do the same thing over and over, right, like, accepting that this isn't come natural to me. So I'm going to do what I need to do to get to help him to bring me to that next level. That's that self awareness and that strength, right. And
Frank Paul Vignola 53:27
like you said, it's self love once we can silence our ego, and we could frame it differently. In our heads, we realize that it's not a sign of weakness. It's actually a sign of self love. Yeah. 100%. Yeah. And anybody who tells you otherwise, once you have that clarity, you could just rather than question yourself, you could just be like, alright, yeah, you haven't evolved to that level? Yeah, I get it. All right.
JT 53:45
Now. Free is there anything else man? Because I'm, we could probably do this for the next three hours. But is there anything we haven't covered that you would really like to make sure we hit?
Frank Paul Vignola 53:56
I think we hit on everything that we wanted to talk about. We said we wanted to hit habits. And we said that we wanted to talk about our stories and the parallels in them and how we got into where we were, we had a really nice moment that we didn't plan for where we talked about leadership. Yeah, it was really cool. Because I see that I see us both as leaders. And we talked about masculinity. I think we hit everything, brother,
JT 54:18
Frank, if somebody wants to find out more about you, maybe they're interested in your coaching services, where they can't talk now. Yeah.
Frank Paul Vignola 54:30
Where can they find? You can find me on my website, my coaching website is mastered man.com That's ma s t e r e. D man.com. And you can also find me on social media. Just look me up on Instagram. Cool.
JT 54:43
Find me on there. Awesome. Well, thanks again for making this drive coming down. Like I said, it was an hour and a half drive for you. I appreciate you taking the time to do this. I'm stoked to see what comes in the future but just between our interactions here and man, appreciate you
Frank Paul Vignola 54:59
absolutely brother I Appreciate you too thanks alright man yeah that was fun
